Church People Not Much Cop

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From our Swindon Corespondent:

From the Guardian

Asked if there had to be rethink on the white image of Jesus, Welby said: “Yes of course it does, this sense that God was white … You go into churches [around the world] and you don’t see a white Jesus.

“You see a black Jesus, a Chinese Jesus, a Middle-Eastern Jesus – which is of course the most accurate – you see a Fijian Jesus.”

It does tickle me that as someone raised Anglican, with weekly trips to church, now an atheist, I could probably do this better than the Archbishop.
To be picky about this, we don’t actually know if Jesus was Middle Eastern, We can assume that Mary and Joseph are, but the bible tells us that this was a virgin birth, the work of the holy spirit, so presumably, had neither of his parent’s DNA. He could have looked like Jackie Chan, Richard Rowntree or Robert Powell.
But to be more serious, the point of Jesus is that he is both man and God. The story speaks to the search for the divine in us. The reason there is a Fijiian or a Chinese Jesus, is that it speaks to all. You, Swedish herring fisherman can be like Jesus. You, African coffee grower can be like Jesus. Shaping Jesus to local tastes is important.
If you’re going to worry about things like historic accuracy, you’re missing the point.

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Pat
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Pat

The CofE, like yourself, was once Christian but is now atheist.

Quentin Vole
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Quentin Vole

Dr Spacely-Trellis (Bishop of Bevindon) lives: “We are all guilty” he added, before anyone could stop him.

Sam Vara
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Sam Vara

One of the reasons why the C of E is just so hopelessly boring is that it tries to do politics without any aptitude for doing so. Theological training used to be fairly rigorous, and even for some atheists the thoughts of the clergy on life, death, morality, and the “big questions” were challenging and robust. Now, strapped for cash, the training for the priesthood is a shadow of its former self, often done through glorified correspondence courses. And many clergy do little more than follow trends in Labour Party or identity politics. Their thoughts are of no more consequence… Read more »

Snarkus
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Snarkus

Sam, regrettably true. However, it’s worse than that. Even the ruins of the so called evangelicals are now shallower than a supermarket carpark puddle. The intellectual rigor of the “Christians” in the 1930s was such that there was an academic call to rescue “Literature” from the Christians. Now there is mostly garbled babble descended from Norman Vincent Peale in the remains of Western subchristian culture, whether pentecostal or old school denominations. There are a very few honorable exceptions, but one has to search for them. Needless to say they dont get published easily.

Snarkus
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Snarkus

Tim, most unusually wrong. You speak like a modern atheist in bishops robes. The whole christian message from earliest days was based on eye witness accounts of a Deity incarnated living in a specific place and time. Unlike any other religion, the loss of the truth of historical events destroys the religion. St Pauls explicitly states this. As for genetics, why would the genes of Mary not be used ? And please, lets not have the now dismissed propaganda of misotheists and ignorant 19th century experts about the Gospels being written decades or centuries after the events related. Simply not… Read more »

Bloke on M4
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Bloke on M4

“As for genetics, why would the genes of Mary not be used ? ”

Why would they be? Immaculate conception. No need to bother with the egg, if you’re not using the sperm, is there?

John B
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John B

The Immaculate Conception does not refer to Mary’s pregnancy with Jesus, but her own conception.

Theologically: Original Sin is the Sin of Adam inherited by all Humans at the moment of conception in mother’s womb, the stain of which can only be washed away by the Sacrament of Baptism.

Since there was no Baptism at the time of Mary’s birth, Mary would have had Original Sin. It was unthinkable that God-made-Man could be carried in the womb of a sinner.

So it was determined that Mary must have been conceived without Original Sin: the Immaculate Conception.

Spike
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Spike

Snarkus, this piece isn’t by Tim but by some guy from Swindon.

I too am ignorant of the mechanics of immaculate conception. God presumably has the ability to commandeer both Mary and Joseph’s DNA, in fact, to select the best samples for His purposes, and probably has none of His own. I don’t know if He did. It doesn’t matter.

John B
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John B

‘… Gospels being written decades or centuries after the events related.‘

As a former Catholic, taught in Catholic schools with religious instruction given by priests, I can affirm that it was accepted by the Roman Catholic Church that the Gospels were not contemporaneous accounts, the four acknowledged Gospels written decades apart, with John’s the last written and in his later life several decades after the death of Jesus.

The Gospels contain differences, some events mentioned in only one, otherwise reports differ – eg feeding of 3 000 not 5 000.

Snarkus
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Snarkus

A few decades is not contested. That does not mean writings were not eyewitness account. Centuries was the fashionable opinion. As for for gospel sequence, even the traditional views of order of writing has been challenged, even by some who know what they are talking about. But this is a digression. OnTopic: Apologies to Tim for incorrect attribution

Michael van der Riet
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Michael van der Riet

Dear Snarkus, the bible is full of supposed eyewitness accounts, none of which stand up under even lax examination.

Snarkus
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Snarkus

Michael, your evidence for this assertion ?

DiscoveredJoys
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DiscoveredJoys

Never mind the trivial question of what Jesus (if he existed as just one person rather than the template for a later religion) looked like. Archbishops should ask themselves why Jesus and Christianity are now seen as Woke, equality, fairness etc. If the events as related in the Gospels are true(!) Jesus had a bit of a temper, whipping the moneychangers out of the temple, cursing the fig tree, predicting the end of the world within the lifetime of his audience. To interpret Jesus in modern terms is as anachronistic as BLM blaming past worthies for attitudes to slavery that… Read more »

John B
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John B

‘… attitudes to slavery…’. And Jesus without hesitation cured the daughter of a Centurion who probably owned a slave and/or who had sold enemies captured in battle into slavery, including Jews: Rome being a slave-owning society at the time.

FrankH
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FrankH

You’re being silly. Everybody knows God is English so of course His son is English. Stands to reason, innit.

Spike
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Spike

Welby’s point is the same as the rest of the current round of the Black Power movement: You cannot appeal to black people, much less represent them, unless you have the same skin color. Everything, including Jesus and our actual national history, that disparages them must be remade or discarded in favor of a pretend view. And imitation (blackface) is automatically disparagement.

Nothing the Black Lives Matter front of the Democratic Party is doing is good for black people.

John B
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John B

But nobody has seen God and by definition he is not Human.

Islam has the solution: depictions of Allah or the Prophet are forbidden. In fact the Protestant reformers were of the same idea, smashing statuary and stained glass windows, burning pictures. It is why Catholics and High Anglican have crucifixes, Protestant sects have crosses, the former with a figure of Jesus, the latter without.